The Workermonkey

Monday, September 27, 2004

forgiveness negates perfection 

# posted by josh @ 9/27/2004 08:59:00 PM

so anonymous emily, i would assume that your vision of god is one of perfection yes? that seems to be a pretty common characteristic attributed to god. how about omnipotence? all-knowing? if so, then there may be a problem w/ forgiveness, which is apparently what i, and my friends here, need according to you so we dont go to hell (though i did always prefer warmer weather). i would also argue that to forgive the sins of all humans, a god would have to be all-knowing, he'd have to be everywhere. how else would he know or "hear" who to save? well, theoretically, then, if we sin, god knew we would beforehand (and apparently chose not to prevent it). so we sin, and he forgives. he does not harbor resentment towards our sins. but it is sometimes said that god forgives us before we ask for forgiveness, and maybe even sometimes before we commit the wrong to begin with. this would mean that god forgives before he resents us (or our sins) for the act he just forgave us for. in other words, by the time he resents, we have been absolved of the sin. so, certainly, if we have been absolved of the sin, there can be no reason for which god may hold resentment towards us. if he does, then he's resenting us for no reason. but since he can't, then this means that god DOES NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO NOT FORGIVE US. if he doesn't have that option, he can't be so omnipotent, can he?

also, forgiveness absolves our sins. we pray or ask for forgiveness, and this wonderful, warm and cuddly god forgives us. does this not simply validate wrongdoings? so our acts may lead us into earthly troubles, but our souls will be safe? if i kill someone tomorrow, yet achieve forgiveness, my soul will be ok? that seems like it could lead ot some sort of decay of the moral system. so it seems that perhaps at least either god can't be perfect and omnipotent, or the forgiving of sin is not a divine attribute.

a final question. could god create a boulder so heavy that he could not lift it? if so, how? if not, what does that say about the perfection aspect of god's character?

thats just a start for now

8 comments

God could do it..but I don't think He would. You've got some valid points there..I'll have to give you that. But do you realize we're talking about the same thing? You have faith God doesn't exist. I have faith God does exist. Either way-we both believe in something. Sadly, your belief just lets you live however you please-but sin always has conquences. I know-I've seen them in my own life. I would love to know more about what you think-perhaps you have more questions--would be be willing to at least give me a chance? At least listen..if not, then I will drop it and simply pray.

By  Amanda, at Tuesday, September 28, 2004 7:46:00 AM  

You said it yourself- you are restricted, we are not. We both live moral lives, yet you are controlled by something. That is one of our points about the origins of religion used to control people.

Atleast this one seems more open and able to have a decent conversation without quoting the bible.

By  Brancibeer, at Tuesday, September 28, 2004 10:27:00 AM  

it just seems to me that living under god is such a restricted life. do you believe that god gave you free will? or do you believe in determinism? if free will, then why do sins exist? why are there some things which, if done, will damn our souls to hell if we're supposed to have FREE will? FREE will implies freedom, not from consequence of your actions, but in teh sense that while you're accountable for your actions to others in society, that is where it ends. and if you believe in determinism, then why does god determine that people would sin, if he resents sin and has to forgive it? what's the point of predetermining people to sin if that goes against god's wishes?

By  josh, at Tuesday, September 28, 2004 2:10:00 PM  

question: If free will or having the free choice does indeed mean freedon, why is not everything free? Why can one steal and go to court-is that not free? or why can't everyone murder whoever they feel like? are those not free chioces? Yes..I can choose to kill..it is my free choice-but I will have a consequence. God gave us a free will. We can make any choice we want. Really. But at some point there will be consequences.

"if i kill someone tomorrow, yet achieve forgiveness, my soul will be ok? that seems like it could lead ot some sort of decay of the moral system." Do you think there is a moral system? You almost seem to be contradicting yourself. Maybe not..maybe you just think the only moral system is as the government defines it. And yes, while forgiveness does forgive-it does not remove the punishment. but this is pointless..you aren't going to listen and I don't know everything..

By  Amanda, at Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:48:00 PM  

"but this is pointless..you aren't going to listen and I don't know everything.."

hey, i don't like to be painted with that brush. actually, as a philosophy major, now a law student, i'm interested in and fascinated by argument, and i am interested in teh arguments people make and the reasons tehy use to back up said arguments. so next time you're going to direct a statement at me, or at an entire group, make sure it applies to the entire group. gross generalizations lead to many speculative fallacies.

now, we may not agree (and may never agree) on the end point of the argument, but that does not mean there is nothign to be gained from discussion. at the very least, interest. i may have to take this to your blog or something, as it seems the workermonkey crew is tiring of the argument.

at any rate, i'm not sure i understand how you think i'm contradicting myself? please explain, i'm trying to see it from your POV but i'm missing something...

By  josh, at Tuesday, September 28, 2004 5:50:00 PM  

sorry..didn't mean to make a blanket statement..just seemed like no one wanted to listen. honestly..I am not trying to be a bible thumping freak..I just think if you can share your views, why can't I share mine?

And I'll admit..I won't have all the answers..I might not be able to contradict everything you throw at me..But I'll listen you what you guys have to say if you listen to me..

By  Amanda, at Tuesday, September 28, 2004 10:25:00 PM  

first, i know what the word infinite is.

second, you're contradicting yourself there. you said god could create a stone so heavy he couldn't lift it, then you said he could lift it. that's like saying "A" is true, and also that "not A" is true. that defies logic. how do you figure that works? that's like saying "i exist" is true, but also "i do not exist" is true. god can't do both, and certainly couldn't do both at the same time. that's ridiculous.

By  josh, at Wednesday, September 29, 2004 9:49:00 PM  

even permitting that god could do anything he wants, he could not do things that violate logic. some things are just impossible. to say that god could do all things impossible in the world would imply that there are really no rules governing the universe. that's preposterous

By  josh, at Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:35:00 PM  

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