The Workermonkey

Tuesday, September 28, 2004

Dr. Beer explains 

# posted by Brancibeer @ 9/28/2004 11:54:00 PM

Well, you fellas should find this intersting too, soooooooo....

Dear girls,

Actually yes, I have studied a bit of thermodynamics. And theres a lot more to it than “specks of nothing”. I’ll also tell you that “God did it” is easier to believe than gasses and dust, but easier doesn’t always mean right. You are correct, though, that the world is not becoming more orderly and that it is in a slow rate of decline. In fact, you just stated the second law of thermodynamics- “The natural state of matter is chaos and all things tend to run down and become random and disordered”. Way to go. If we were any closer to the sun, we would burn up. But we are not, and there is life. The right mix of ingredients is all here. Sun, carbon, energy, water. They all work together. Out of the entire universe somewhere had to have gotten it right. We should feel lucky that we are on the winning ticket (there’s probably a few more). The universe is so big that we cannot even imagine it. Literally, we are not capable of processing something so enormous in our brains. Imagine a housefly compared to the size of earth, then multiply by 10 million, and you’d almost be there.

Evolution. Your also right in what you said- “take the eye…could something that intricate and detailed just have, “poof”, been there?”. No, no it could not. But that is where evolution comes in. Evolution is defined as gradual change over time. It takes thousands of years for it to occur. It just does not happen instantaneously. The human eye for example- it could have evolved via gradual steps:

• photosensitive cell.
• Aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve.
• an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin.
• pigment cells forming a small depression.
• pigment cells forming a deeper depression.
• the skin over the depression taking a lens shape.
• muscles allowing the lens to adjust.

All of these steps are known to be practical because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments because any variation or modification in the organ can be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life. Gradual change over time. Animals adapt to shifting environments. The ones that have the best advantages are selected for and therefore mate to pass on the traits to the future, until the next change occurs.

Since eyes don't fossilize well, we don't know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly can't claim that no path exists.

It was also calculated that, if each step were a 1% change, the evolution of the eye would take 1829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations. Hhmmm…..that sounds just about right… Now I’ll ask you- Which takes more faith?

Anyway, I hope this helps with your concept of evolution. Even if you don’t believe it, there’s still substance to be learned. It’s like anything else- break it down, and use common sense and rational thinking.

12 comments

wow, that came out really fucked up. Thats what i get for doing half on the web and half in word.

By  Brancibeer, at Wednesday, September 29, 2004 12:03:00 AM  

Lookin' good, BBoy. The human eye is the most complicated organ in the body, I think. It makes for a good arguement in terms of evolutionary complexity. I've heard it used in both directions, but the math sounds right on for this arguement.

By  DJ Booze Piñata, at Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:58:00 PM  

well..valid points i guess..still doesn't make much sense..when did the world stop becoming more orderly and start becoming less orderly? and you can use math to solve a lot of things, but can you show me any hard evidence? Where are the missing links? And easier isn't always better, but in some cases it is. I don't know..I just don't think it makes any sense. I am supposed to believe that a long long time ago..by chance a bunch of stuff got together and over a period of a long long time created all the complicated parts of our world? Why wouldn't I believe instead that a creator made everything in seven days? I mean, creation points to a designer. Plus I don't honestly want to believe I came from a monkey...no offence to your name-I just like the idea that all my ancestors were humans..not animals..

By  Amanda, at Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:15:00 PM  

so...... your not an animal?

By  ron, at Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:28:00 PM  

Look, of course its really really complicated. Thats why people devote years of their life trying to understand it. But once you begin learning and seeing things coming together and working, it starts to make sense. Think of it in small terms. An orderly sand dune is made from disorder- the wind blows chaoticly, but the peices of sand form a structure. Snow flakes are so intricate and complex, yet they form from water crystals freezing in a completely random fashion. A disorganized bag of potatoe chips organizes itself- crumbs on the bottom, solid chips on top. There are so many forces at play here, it takes lifetimes to peice together.

By  Brancibeer, at Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:15:00 PM  

yeah but you don't have to use evolution to explain those things...and regardless of how much time you spend and how much you break it down..it doesn't make sense..it's simply what you chose to believe in and put your faith it. I chose to put my faith in God..you chose to put yours in evolution. Personally, I think mine makes more sense..and you think yours makes more sense. I am not going to change my beliefs because I know they are right and you probably won't change yours because you think they are right. not to mention that I have yet to meet a person who likes to be proven wrong.

On an aside..have you ever seen The Passion of Christ?

By  Amanda, at Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:53:00 PM  

some much intelligence and so much ignorance in one post. its a love and hate thing

i applaud your evolutionary knowledge branciteam-very well said

amanda i respect your faith.
but come on-of course religion is easier-you dont have to learn anything besides "it was gods will" why did this happen=god did it

please try and explore other religions and the history of religion-you'll see the common themes and may understand why religion started in the first place-

people did not know how things worked, so it must be god, or a gods doing. now that we know how things work-documented proof of evolution-all that people need to do is learn,
however, ignorance is easier

By  murphy, at Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:11:00 PM  

i was going to post a nasty comment but i'll be nice. just because things dont make sense to you doesnt mean that they arent true. i think you two are too young to have such strong convictions about this issue. i actually grew up going to church and praying. anyway dont believe just because you were brought up that way. arent you the least bit skeptical about what people tell you and whats true? do you have any ambition to find out the truth? why things occur/happen?
the blanket statement of "god made that way" doesnt provide any answers really. if you are content in your answers then thats absolutely fine. as for the rest of us on this board, we strive for the truths in life and embrace scientific discoveries and factual knowledge. this arguement on this board will never end because we, or atleast I, cannont be content living with god as the answer to things.
i guess we all want more answers, whereas you two stop and say "this is enough, these are the answers, its god". to each their own

By  ron, at Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:17:00 PM  

I am not too young to have strong convictions. And since you grew up in church you at least have heard this stuff before? but what made you decide it was wrong? what made you want to search for something else? what triggered a desire to prove God wrong? And why are you taking the time to prove me wrong? or to point out my errors-do you not have better things to do? or are you on a rampage against God?

By  Amanda, at Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:27:00 PM  

good point ron! it's a fallacy to say "i dont get it, so it's not true." it's also a fallacy to say "well your point is wrong, so mine must be right." tha'ts a false dilemma. maybe there's a 3rd option out there we don't even know about.

i've noticed something else. several people have said stuff like religion and an ultimate creator is easier to understand. i disagree (note, i am NOT ignorantly claiming that because i don't see it this way, it's wrong, i'm just explaining my reasoning so don't jump all over my ass sayin i'm making accusations i'm not). i find it much more difficult to imagine some all-powerful, omniscient, perfect, all-knowing being that created the world with its infinite detail (and i wonder how you could so easily imagine this, not really being able to understand the infinite, due to your own finite capacities). it seems much more logical and believable that things, over BILLIONS of years, very SLOWLY EVOLVED, with those creatures not evolving and adapting to the environment dying off, thus leaving what is left today (see natural selection). it is difficult to imagine these intricacies all being established in a week, or 6 days if there's some resting on the 7th and all. i guess god plays golf too.

also, if humans (which are animals by the way) didn't evolve from other animals, such as apes or whatnot, that would mean we're all descendents from the same people, adam and eve. hence, every time a couple reproduces they're also commiting incest. what a lovely thought. there are statutes against that now. theoretically, we'd need a huge master chart including every person ever existing on this world to tell us if the person we're attracted to is enough degrees apart from ourselves where it's not incest. this seems ridiculous. god's existence necessitates incest. hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha

By  josh, at Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:29:00 PM  

amanda, i have a couple questions:
1) you keep harping on the fact you're not 16, yet you have not once told us your age. how old are you, then? 15? 14? if you don't tell us, we'll assume you're lying.

2) we are not against you. what we want is you to put away teh books. make a rational argument for god's existence w/o quoting the bible or another religious source. i can quote books too: "things the south was right about: beef jerky, lemonade, fancy balls, good manners, country music [questionable], napping in hammocks, beauty queens, michael jordan, wal-mart, alligator wrestling, walt disney world" Moore, Stupid white men, p131. see? anyone can quote books. but add some logic to it. if you must use the bible, use ideas, but not direct passages. you're just slowly reading us a book, not making a persuasive argument.

ok so 1 question, 1 statement. whatever.

By  josh, at Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:46:00 PM  

blah blah blah, i just have a mind that was unsatisfied with the answers the church provided for me. who the fuck are they to tell me whats right and wrong? it was just unnecessary for my life. infact it bothered me to believe in something that i didnt agree with. it felt unfounded. with that being said, i will no longer respond to any religious garbage.

By  ron, at Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:51:00 PM  

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